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	<title>Comments on: Basics-14 &#8211; The Holiness of God</title>
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		<title>By: john</title>
		<link>http://christreport.com/2010/07/basics-14-the-holiness-of-god/comment-page-1/#comment-768</link>
		<dc:creator>john</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Aug 2010 02:50:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thanks, Dave.  I appreciate your encouragement! 
JM </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Dave.  I appreciate your encouragement!<br />
JM</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://christreport.com/2010/07/basics-14-the-holiness-of-god/comment-page-1/#comment-764</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Aug 2010 04:31:14 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>very nice! well done! </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>very nice! well done!</p>
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		<title>By: john</title>
		<link>http://christreport.com/2010/07/basics-14-the-holiness-of-god/comment-page-1/#comment-757</link>
		<dc:creator>john</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Jul 2010 05:20:49 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Hi Nick, 
Thank you for your comments.  I have given them a good deal of thought, and while it is not my intent to get into debates in this forum, I felt I needed to address some of the issues you brought up. 
 
I agree with the Lexical definition of &lt;em&gt;logizomai&lt;/em&gt; you quoted (from Thayer and Smith’s Greek Lexicon)—&lt;em&gt;logizomai&lt;/em&gt; indeed references facts which are not in dispute.  To emphasize this, the passage you used (Rom. 4:3) has the word &lt;em&gt;logizomai&lt;/em&gt; as an aorist passive indicative verb.  The aorist tense indicates that the imputation occurred at a single point of time.  The passive voice indicates that Abraham received the imputation of righteousness (an indication that the righteousness was NOT inherent, by the way).  And the indicative mood reveals the reality of the imputation—again, it is a fact that is not in dispute.  So we agree that &lt;em&gt;logizomai&lt;/em&gt; is a word which deals with reality. 
 
Where I think we part company is on this point: You seem to be saying that the righteousness that justified Abraham was inherent to him.  If Abraham’s act of faith was inherently righteous enough to earn him the approbation of God then his act would have been the equivalent of works—i.e. his act would have been intrinsically sufficient to justify him in God’s eyes.  He then would have something to boast about—which flies in the face of Paul’s whole argument that he is presenting in Romans 4 concerning the sufficiency of grace and the insufficiency of works for obtaining God’s justification. 
 
If Abraham’s “local/inherent righteousness” (as you put it) is adequate to result in God’s justification, what then are we to make of Isa. 64:6 where it declares God’s attitude toward man’s inherent righteousness: “&lt;em&gt;But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags …&lt;/em&gt;”?  As you yourself have said, “This cannot be right.” 
 
Nick, I’m afraid that you are trying to limit the meaning of &lt;em&gt;logizomai&lt;/em&gt; to only that which is inherent in or originates with the object of the verb.  In ancient Rome when an adult son was adopted into a wealthy family (an illustration Paul uses in Romans 8 and 9 as well as in Galatians 4 and Ephesians 1) he was given a &lt;em&gt;toga virilis&lt;/em&gt;, which was a toga signifying that he was an adult male taking his rightful place as in Roman society as a citizen with full rights.   
 
He was also given a signet ring which when pressed into sealing wax left the family mark.  This gave him full access to his adopted father’s bank account and allowed him to conduct business in the name of his new family.  This newfound wealth and power was certainly NOT inherent with him—it originated with his adopted father who IMPUTED it to him—and the results of that imputation was VERY real.  In other words all the privileges and wealth of the family was now at his disposal—even though he did not earn or deserve any of it!  Believers are adopted sons of God, and we enjoy all the privileges of adult sons of God because God has imputed the mark—the signet—of His family to us—His very own Righteousness. 
 
Faith indeed results in Righteousness, but it is the imputed Righteousness of God, NOT the inherent or intrinsic righteousness of the believer.  Your interpretation adds works to faith, and if you believe that you might as well rip Romans chapter 4 right out of your Bible. 
 
JM </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Nick,<br />
Thank you for your comments.  I have given them a good deal of thought, and while it is not my intent to get into debates in this forum, I felt I needed to address some of the issues you brought up. </p>
<p>I agree with the Lexical definition of <em>logizomai</em> you quoted (from Thayer and Smith’s Greek Lexicon)—<em>logizomai</em> indeed references facts which are not in dispute.  To emphasize this, the passage you used (Rom. 4:3) has the word <em>logizomai</em> as an aorist passive indicative verb.  The aorist tense indicates that the imputation occurred at a single point of time.  The passive voice indicates that Abraham received the imputation of righteousness (an indication that the righteousness was NOT inherent, by the way).  And the indicative mood reveals the reality of the imputation—again, it is a fact that is not in dispute.  So we agree that <em>logizomai</em> is a word which deals with reality. </p>
<p>Where I think we part company is on this point: You seem to be saying that the righteousness that justified Abraham was inherent to him.  If Abraham’s act of faith was inherently righteous enough to earn him the approbation of God then his act would have been the equivalent of works—i.e. his act would have been intrinsically sufficient to justify him in God’s eyes.  He then would have something to boast about—which flies in the face of Paul’s whole argument that he is presenting in Romans 4 concerning the sufficiency of grace and the insufficiency of works for obtaining God’s justification. </p>
<p>If Abraham’s “local/inherent righteousness” (as you put it) is adequate to result in God’s justification, what then are we to make of Isa. 64:6 where it declares God’s attitude toward man’s inherent righteousness: “<em>But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags …</em>”?  As you yourself have said, “This cannot be right.” </p>
<p>Nick, I’m afraid that you are trying to limit the meaning of <em>logizomai</em> to only that which is inherent in or originates with the object of the verb.  In ancient Rome when an adult son was adopted into a wealthy family (an illustration Paul uses in Romans 8 and 9 as well as in Galatians 4 and Ephesians 1) he was given a <em>toga virilis</em>, which was a toga signifying that he was an adult male taking his rightful place as in Roman society as a citizen with full rights.   </p>
<p>He was also given a signet ring which when pressed into sealing wax left the family mark.  This gave him full access to his adopted father’s bank account and allowed him to conduct business in the name of his new family.  This newfound wealth and power was certainly NOT inherent with him—it originated with his adopted father who IMPUTED it to him—and the results of that imputation was VERY real.  In other words all the privileges and wealth of the family was now at his disposal—even though he did not earn or deserve any of it!  Believers are adopted sons of God, and we enjoy all the privileges of adult sons of God because God has imputed the mark—the signet—of His family to us—His very own Righteousness. </p>
<p>Faith indeed results in Righteousness, but it is the imputed Righteousness of God, NOT the inherent or intrinsic righteousness of the believer.  Your interpretation adds works to faith, and if you believe that you might as well rip Romans chapter 4 right out of your Bible. </p>
<p>JM</p>
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		<title>By: Nick</title>
		<link>http://christreport.com/2010/07/basics-14-the-holiness-of-god/comment-page-1/#comment-754</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jul 2010 08:22:08 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I think you have a wrong view of imputation: 
 
In my study on this topic of imputed righteousness, the Greek term &#8220;logizomai&#8221; is the English term for &#8220;reckon/impute/credit/etc,&#8221; (all terms are basically equivalently used) and when I look up that term in a popular lexicon here is what it is defined as: 
 
&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;- 
QUOTE: &#8220;This word deals with reality. If I &#8220;logizomai&#8221; or reckon that my bank book has $25 in it, it has $25 in it. Otherwise I am deceiving myself. This word refers to facts not suppositions.&#8221;  &lt;a href=&quot;http://tinyurl.com/r92dch&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://tinyurl.com/r92dch&lt;/a&gt; 
&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;- 
 
The lexicon states this term first and foremost refers to the actual status of something. So if Abraham&#8217;s faith is &#8220;logizomai as righteousness,&#8221; it must be an actually righteous act of faith, otherwise (as the Lexicon says) &#8220;I am deceiving myself.&#8221; This seems to rule out any notion of an alien righteousness, and instead points to a local/inherent righteousness. 
 
The Lexicon gives other examples where &#8220;logizomai&#8221; appears, here are some examples: 
&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;- 
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude [logizomai] that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 
 
Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted [logizomai] as a gift but as his due. 
 
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon [logizomai] ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 
 
Rom 8:18 For I reckon [logizomai] that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 
&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;- 
 
Notice in these examples that &#8220;logizomai&#8221; means to consider the actual truth of an object. In 3:28 Paul &#8216;reckons&#8217; faith saves while the Law does not, this is a fact, the Law never saves. In 4:4 the worker&#8217;s wages are &#8216;reckoned&#8217; as a debt because the boss is in debt to the worker, not giving a gift to him. In 6:11 the Christian is &#8216;reckoned&#8217; dead to sin because he is in fact dead to sin. In 8:18 Paul &#8216;reckons&#8217; the present sufferings as having no comparison to Heavenly glory, and that is true because nothing compares to Heavenly glory. 
 
To use logizomai in the &#8220;alien status&#8221; way would mean in: (1) 3:28 faith doesn&#8217;t really save apart from works, but we are going to go ahead and say it does; (2) 4:4 the boss gives payment to the worker as a gift rather than obligation/debt; (3) 6:11 that we are not really dead to sin but are going to say we are; (4) 8:18 the present sufferings are comparable to Heaven&#8217;s glory. 
This cannot be right. 
 
So when the text plainly says &#8220;faith is logizomai as righteousness,&#8221; I must read that as &#8216;faith is reckoned as a truly righteous act&#8217;, and that is precisely how Paul explains that phrase in 4:18-22. That despite the doubts that could be raised in Abraham&#8217;s heart, his faith grew strong and convinced and &#8220;that is why his faith was credited as righteousness&#8221; (v4:22). This is also confirmed by noting the only other time &#8220;credited as righteousness&#8221; appears in Scripture, Psalm 106:30-31, where Phinehas&#8217; righteous action was reckoned as such. This is confirmed even more when one compares another similar passage, Hebrews 11:4, where by faith Abel was commended as righteous. 
 </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you have a wrong view of imputation: </p>
<p>In my study on this topic of imputed righteousness, the Greek term &ldquo;logizomai&rdquo; is the English term for &ldquo;reckon/impute/credit/etc,&rdquo; (all terms are basically equivalently used) and when I look up that term in a popular lexicon here is what it is defined as: </p>
<p>&mdash;&mdash;&mdash;&mdash;&mdash;-<br />
QUOTE: &ldquo;This word deals with reality. If I &ldquo;logizomai&rdquo; or reckon that my bank book has $25 in it, it has $25 in it. Otherwise I am deceiving myself. This word refers to facts not suppositions.&rdquo;  <a href="http://tinyurl.com/r92dch" rel="nofollow">http://tinyurl.com/r92dch</a><br />
&mdash;&mdash;&mdash;&mdash;&mdash;- </p>
<p>The lexicon states this term first and foremost refers to the actual status of something. So if Abraham&rsquo;s faith is &ldquo;logizomai as righteousness,&rdquo; it must be an actually righteous act of faith, otherwise (as the Lexicon says) &ldquo;I am deceiving myself.&rdquo; This seems to rule out any notion of an alien righteousness, and instead points to a local/inherent righteousness. </p>
<p>The Lexicon gives other examples where &ldquo;logizomai&rdquo; appears, here are some examples:<br />
&mdash;&mdash;&mdash;&mdash;&mdash;&mdash;-<br />
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude [logizomai] that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. </p>
<p>Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted [logizomai] as a gift but as his due. </p>
<p>Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon [logizomai] ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. </p>
<p>Rom 8:18 For I reckon [logizomai] that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.<br />
&mdash;&mdash;&mdash;&mdash;&mdash;&mdash;- </p>
<p>Notice in these examples that &ldquo;logizomai&rdquo; means to consider the actual truth of an object. In 3:28 Paul &lsquo;reckons&rsquo; faith saves while the Law does not, this is a fact, the Law never saves. In 4:4 the worker&rsquo;s wages are &lsquo;reckoned&rsquo; as a debt because the boss is in debt to the worker, not giving a gift to him. In 6:11 the Christian is &lsquo;reckoned&rsquo; dead to sin because he is in fact dead to sin. In 8:18 Paul &lsquo;reckons&rsquo; the present sufferings as having no comparison to Heavenly glory, and that is true because nothing compares to Heavenly glory. </p>
<p>To use logizomai in the &ldquo;alien status&rdquo; way would mean in: (1) 3:28 faith doesn&rsquo;t really save apart from works, but we are going to go ahead and say it does; (2) 4:4 the boss gives payment to the worker as a gift rather than obligation/debt; (3) 6:11 that we are not really dead to sin but are going to say we are; (4) 8:18 the present sufferings are comparable to Heaven&rsquo;s glory.<br />
This cannot be right. </p>
<p>So when the text plainly says &ldquo;faith is logizomai as righteousness,&rdquo; I must read that as &lsquo;faith is reckoned as a truly righteous act&rsquo;, and that is precisely how Paul explains that phrase in 4:18-22. That despite the doubts that could be raised in Abraham&rsquo;s heart, his faith grew strong and convinced and &ldquo;that is why his faith was credited as righteousness&rdquo; (v4:22). This is also confirmed by noting the only other time &ldquo;credited as righteousness&rdquo; appears in Scripture, Psalm 106:30-31, where Phinehas&rsquo; righteous action was reckoned as such. This is confirmed even more when one compares another similar passage, Hebrews 11:4, where by faith Abel was commended as righteous.</p>
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